#GruntGod ep.3: Tremper Longman
The fourth installment of a revolutionary exploration of faith and service.
Transcript
Introduction
Hello and welcome to Grunt Works. My name is Brother Logan Isaac, and I'm broadcasting this morning from Laguna Beach, California. This is front God, chapter four, wi on the Divine Warrior, the Armor of God with Tremper Longman. Just really quickly, I'm out of town today, so I'm recording from my in-laws in Laguna Beach.
But this is a really important chapter. It's the title chapter of the book. If Jesus is God, then God is a grunt. And Tremper wrote a book in the nineties that I picked up in seminary called God is a Warrior, and he goes into with his co-author, Dan Reed, goes into some of the divine warrior. Language motif, symbolism.
And in the book, in his book, they outline this kind of five part structure to help Christians understand what [00:01:00] God might be doing with this violence that is not hidden. It's, they don't seem to be ashamed of it. There's all kinds of writings from pacifists and patriots or conservatives and progressives about what do we do with this violence?
Is it a prescriptive. Literature, do we get to do what we see the Israelites doing against Amalek and the other tribes of the Canaanite plateau or the plane? Or is it this thing that tells us what not to do because it's harder to argue 'cause God frequently says things prescriptively to do this thing to the Israelites.
And I take that Jesus is a warrior. God is a warrior. Comes from Exodus 15, verse three, where the Israel, the Israelites have just fled Pharaoh. They've just successfully gone through the sea of reeds or the Red Sea and watched the water close in on Pharaoh's [00:02:00] chariots. Now they were a an exiled people.
They were slaves when they were in Egypt, and they looked back at one of the most powerful nations the world had known at that time and have seen that they have defeated them effectively. Is that they're doing, is that some supernatural miracle that they attribute to God? And the second is true and they break out into song, the Song of the Sea, the song of Moses where.
It begins with God is a warrior, Yahweh is God's name, and it goes on to they've, dashed the chariots of Egypt. And it's really difficult and it doesn't end in Exodus 15. It goes on through the rest of Torah and in Joshua and in judges where they commit violence against other tribes. So if God is a warrior, and one of the important pieces of that line from Exodus 15 three is that the language is such that a lot [00:03:00] of scholars believe that it's a very old part of the Bible.
And we know from anthropology and historical critical methods that songs and poems are very frequently the oldest form of human composition. If anybody is into sociology or anthropology, like I grew up, I didn't grow up in Hawaii, but I learned a lot as a nature tour guide in Hawaii, and they didn't have a written language until the settlers came.
The congregationalist missionaries came and made, English characters for the Hawaiian language, but they didn't have anything written, and they had an entire creation myth that they memorized. Hundreds of lines long. It's just like Homer's Iliad. Imagine if you had memorized that as a child or as a teen.
That's what human brain is capable of. The oldest things, the easiest things for us to remember, what we do, to remember things is put them into verse, rhythmic verse, rhyming verse, something that helps us remember, because these [00:04:00] are symbols that we attribute something greater than simply a. You know their definition, right?
We think of mythology as giving meaning to the stories that we tell about where we came from, and that's what a lot of genesis and even wider Torah and even part of the Deuterenomic history in Joshua and Judges, that's what's going on. So this conversation is one of the most important ones, I think, of the Grump God season past with Trumper Longman, this really incredible scholar.
We have a great conversation. I was actually very surprised. That sounds bad. I was pleasantly refreshed with the level of conversation that we had. And I think it does some justice to the importance of this chapter. What do we do with Jesus being God and God's most difficult edges for us to understand in commanding violence?
I won't go into much of it here, but I do think you'll really appreciate this [00:05:00] conversation with Trumper Longman on the Divine Warrior Motif and God being a warrior. And don't forget, this is just the fourth chapter of 13 and The Grunt God See pass. I hope you'll go check that out at pq hq.com/merch.
You can get all of the 13 chapters and episodes ad free. You'll get the ebook of God as a grunt when it's released on November 11th. But also as I'm laying out these chapters, there are also certain things along the way that I hope my audience will participate in, including Grunt Con.
Grunt Con is gonna be the first meeting of I hope many for other rank and file believers. To come to Albany, Oregon and have some of these conversations about what it means to be a rank and file believer in our world today. What does it mean to look at our scripture and our traditions and our theologies through the lens of grunts, through rank and file believers?
Think about [00:06:00] what it means to do the work from the bottom up, beginning with the poor and lowly and letting things unfold from there. So I hope you'll check out Grunt Con at PP hq.com/grunt con. You can also get the Grunt God season pass. You can also, you can still buy the hardcover for. I think it's for sale at $26, but this is all also building up to the re-release of Goddess A grunt in paperback, where you can also get the ebook all in one as well as all of these a, all of these episodes ad free.
So thank you for listening. Thank you for following. I hope you enjoy the following conversation that I've, I have with Temper Longman an incredible scholar and he seems to have done it all, both editorial theology as well as he's been teaching at Westmont for some time. I think he's an emeritus now, and he's still writing just a lot of these scholars do.
And I'm really looking forward to a lot of the work that he's continuing to put [00:07:00] out. But also just, yeah. I really like this conversation. I think you will too. Thank you for listening. Here is our conversation about the divine warrior in scripture.
Interview
Logan M. Isaac: Thank you Dr. Trumper Longman III, teacher, author professor of the Old Testament. I appreciate you being here with me. We're here to talk today about a a very loaded topic, and it's one that I'm still wrestling with and I you may notice in the text, in the chapter, God is a grunt.
It's the kind of the title chapter, Jesus is God. God is a grunt. I came to that because my read particularly of the New Testament, is Jesus has this opportunity to accept greater favor, privilege, power. And he consistently seems to prefer these lowly statuses, which is this paradox of, from Exodus 15 three, God is a warrior and the [00:08:00] divine armor motif.
I'm fascinated in how that tension plays out within the Bible and of course in our own, in, in national and international politics. Would you say a little bit about I, I clung very closely, at least to the framework in God is a warrior and it's what year did this come out? Do you remember?
Tremper Longman III: Yeah, it was 1995.
Yeah, nine five. So a lot
Logan M. Isaac: may have, yeah. I'd love for you to share more about what went into that book with Dan Reed and what has shifted. Is there anything that you'd like to update or address in light of anything that's happened since?
Tremper Longman III: Yeah, thank you Logan, and call me Trumper. So I, that book came out in 1995 and I started working on the.
The theological theme of God as a warrior in 1981 was when I did some initial papers, wrote some articles, and Dan Reed, who's a New Testament scholar, and had a PhD [00:09:00] from Fuller where he wrote on the theme from the New Testament time period, and then, and then he was working as a editor at InterVarsity, who is my editor.
So we decided to write the book together published by Zondervan, not IVP, but yeah, I don't, to be honest, it was so long ago. I'm so old. I don't have real memory of why I got intrigued by this. Theme. I think maybe I read something by Patrick Miller who taught at Princeton back in the day. That kind of got me thinking or sensitized me to the issue.
And then as I was reading scripture, it just really hit me how pervasive the picture of God as a warrior is. In the Old Testament, not a lot of people were working on it. And to be honest, in 1995, not a lot of people were really interested in the theme or even [00:10:00] really concerned about it now. And it is.
But since then, one of the big things that has happened and also has gotten me thinking in not different ways, but different directions or with different questions is. Happened in nine 11. You know what happened? Nine 11 just all of a sudden galvanized people about, wait a minute, Osama bin Laden sounds a heck of a lot like Joshua.
And and so that raised the ethical concerns that I think most main. Mine Evangelicals and even non-evangelical scholars weren't really digging into. Now, there was one group that was, and that's Mennonite Scholars. Church Scholars like John Yoder and and others ER and so forth.
They were raising the issue because of course they were from a [00:11:00] pacifist tradition. But but yeah so to answer one part of your question, I could go on for 20 minutes. I probably shouldn't do that, but
Logan M. Isaac: that would probably be fine. But anyway.
Tremper Longman III: But I think what drew my attention after nine 11 is the, are the ethical questions connected to the Divine Warrior theme.
And in my most recent book on it, confronting Old Testament controversies, I interact with scholars. With whom I definitely, who I definitely respect, appreciate love there. In the case of Pete Ends, he's one of my closest friends, but he, we have a difference of opinion about how Christian should appropriate the Divine Warrior theme.
Logan M. Isaac: Yeah. And you mentioned,
Tremper Longman III: yeah,
Logan M. Isaac: nine 11, your mind goes to Joshua. And one of the things I talk about in the chapter and something I'm still. Really wrestling with, in particular around [00:12:00] evangelical theologians like Pete. And I'll even the Bible project, I think up in Portland, Tim Mackey, as a veteran, I spent six years in the artillery, so it's not like some support MOS where it's, I'm, I happen to be in the military. Like I, I came to Christ through my uniform.
Tremper Longman III: Yeah.
Logan M. Isaac: And one of the things that I say in the book that I'm still really wrestling with, as I've said, is. When we say Jesus, it's a fourth century invention from Jerome, the Orthodox Church.
The Greeks will still say Yoshua Ben nun, right? Joshua son of none or Yoshua. Ben, Miriam, Joshua, son of Mary. The anglicized form of the name of Christ is Joshua, right? And when I. Heard that I immediately, not immediately, but I began reading Joshua with a little bit more attention. And I later found, which [00:13:00] I mentioned very briefly, I think in the book, but its implications seem significant, the.
The high priest at the time of the exile, or coming home from the exile responsible for building the second temple under which Judaism flourishes is Joshua's son of Jedi. Yeah. God is righteous. His, his father's name, his father Jedi didn't get to participate in the priestly rituals because they were in exile.
There was no temple, and so they come back. Ubal is the governor of Yehuda, the province of Yehuda under Syria. And the Syrian Emperor, Cyrus, the elder, he gives Israel money and he is called the anointed in at least one place, I wanna say in Isaiah. And so for me, I write my first book, reborn the 4th of July.
I described my upbringing as like typical evangelical, like we're American, so we're Christian and Jesus and John Wayne kind of stuff. And [00:14:00] a lot of things. As I got out of the military, I was caught by. I read Yoder's nevertheless, and his typology of pacifism, and I read Gandhi and Tolstoy.
But when I got to Yoder and Hwas, the things that the pacifist imagination was left either forced to say in silence, or they wouldn't say because they couldn't quite get around to it as like Joshua and Judges. Seems to tell a story, an idealized story of Israel's own colonialized history and their failure to hold together a Confederated group of states.
We have 50 states in America. We have this federal system, and it's not entirely unlike it. And so what does it mean? What or what do you think might. We infer as believers in this book that Joshua [00:15:00] is the name of the military commander, name of the high priest with a very modest temple that Herod destroyed down to its foundations according to Josephus.
And then the Messiah shares these names. It's both military commander and high priest In one. Like my I'm nervous about the implications, but I want it. Hear from you, what does that draw up in you and what kind of implications or inferences are safe and which ones maybe we might look to developing more concretely?
Tremper Longman III: There, there's a lot there, Logan. And I and I think your description of the. The name relationship, which implies a kind of thematic or typological. Yeah, connection between the Joshuas is really good. And I would say that as a general statement, I think what. [00:16:00] It implies, or what we, what it suggests once we dig into it is that there is continuity and discontinuity between the Old Testament and New Testament.
And actually the, I hadn't thought about, to be honest, 'cause I think it's a good insight about. The priest Joshua, who may be signaling a transition from the physical warfares of the Old Testament to the spiritual warfare. Yeah, Jesus. In the first period of time between the cross and the second coming. So as because you summarized my view quite well in your book as I read the.
The Bible I've, I see a kind of five phase development of this theme that, again, are characterized by continuity and [00:17:00] discontinuity.
Logan M. Isaac: Yeah.
Tremper Longman III: In a way that does not allow me to disown the Old Testament as my buddy Pete ends. Essentially does when he says that he's closer
Logan M. Isaac: to it. Yeah.
Tremper Longman III: Yeah. I mean he is, his basic view in is that that the Old Testament depiction of God is not the actual God, but that God is allowing Israel to describe God in terms that they're familiar with.
And. And and no I don't think so. And then of course it raises the whole issue. You at one point referred to scholars who think of the conquest and the period of judges as idealized or retro objections, which is. Not my view. I think actually and I think I told you before we started recording that.
One of the books I'm writing now is the Old Testament is history where I will [00:18:00] take much more, what's the right word, optimistic view. But not a fundamentalist view of the history. I think, what the history that we get is shaped and sometimes we romantic. Sometimes the Bible will give us a hyperbolic or and certainly a selective presentation of the history for theological reasons.
But but I do think that it's still legitimate, talk about a conquest and a period of judges. I think actually there's much more unanimity about the period of judges than there is about the conquest. But there's yeah. But basically just real quickly, and maybe you at some point wanna follow up on this.
The five phases are, in the Old Testament we get lots of accounts of God fighting on behalf of Israel against Israel's flesh and blood enemies, and anybody familiar with the Old Testament will know countless stories. [00:19:00] Jericho.
Logan M. Isaac: Yeah, I, yeah.
Tremper Longman III: Yeah. Ai, it's not all
Logan M. Isaac: battle.
Sometimes it's like this collective corporal punishment. Yeah. Yeah.
Tremper Longman III: And actually I would put AI or I in the second phase, which is sometimes fights against Israel, right? Yeah. And then ultimately they take ai but then at the end of the Old Testament time period when they're living in exile.
And and they're helpless under this oppression of the Babylonians and the Persians. Ultimately the Greeks and the Romans. After the Old Testament time period, the. Prophets like Daniel Zacharia and Malachi come with a message, which is you could see this, especially in a place like Daniel seven, in spite of your oppressive circumstances, God is in control.
He'll have the final victory. He'll come as a warrior to save you [00:20:00] from your oppressors. And the message, by the way, is to. Keep God's people from becoming fearful and angry. But then when Jesus comes he circumvents the expectation. Even of John the Baptist, John the Baptist is saying the one who's coming after me is gonna.
Burn up all the chaff. He's gonna Yeah. Chop out the rotten wood. And they
Logan M. Isaac: have this disagreement, like I think a lot. I haven't encountered very many scholars who read Jesus and John's relationship in the way that I have. Yeah. In Luke seven. Like in the next chapter when I talk about GI is the New Testament.
I left it out, but I'm so fascinated that j Jesus and John have this disagreement.
Tremper Longman III: Yeah. Because
Logan M. Isaac: John is you're not anti-imperialist enough. Why are you healing a centurion sun? And Jesus has this, he's threading this very thin needle of John is the one who came before, do not undermine anything that [00:21:00] he said, but, and he has this I dunno. I think and what, even what John does in Luke three 14 when he talks to these soldiers, he says, don't sco fano. Don't polish my figs. Anyway, I wanted to go back really quickly about the Old Testament and what we lose sight of. Because one of the things that kind of clicked for me is this modern invention of history as a series of factual events.
And to then take that anachronistically and put it on the Bible and say, aha, they're telling us what happened. They're just mistaken. And it wasn't until like here, oti, where the western world began looking at history as a linear, chronological series of events. But even before Heredi and the Greeks, like Homer's like history is.
Narrative. It's not, we only know what we've seen and what we experienced in our own interpretation of it. So we prevailed because we tell ourselves we prevailed. And of course, Israel has these stories about the conquest [00:22:00] that look exactly like all these other cultures patting themselves on the back. And that is one of my concerns with some of the scholars that.
Gently pass over Joshua and judges to say, oh, it didn't happen. It's all mythological. But even if that's true, like what do you think that Mytho you've mentioned a little bit what that Mythos is trying to do is to remind us not to be afraid that God is in control to let go of the idea, perhaps of the supremacy of human agency.
Yeah. Is that, is there a better way to say that or is that I cohesive.
Tremper Longman III: What you're saying is very cohesive. I would though argue that there is something historical behind it. Okay. It's not like nothing. I agree. Jo and sometimes people misunderstand mythology as if it isn't that, but scholars tend to use it's
Logan M. Isaac: poo-pooed a lot.
Tremper Longman III: Yeah. So [00:23:00] unfortunately I but so the way I understand it, and you have to evaluate different parts of the Old Testament differently on this topic. But let's take the conquest so classically in historical critical approaches to the conquest, you'll have people who will pit Joshua one through 12 against judges one.
So Joshua one through 12 and no doubt about it. You read Joshua 11 and 12. The only, if you were approaching it as a straight factual presentation, you'd have to conclude that Joshua took everything.
Logan M. Isaac: Yeah.
Tremper Longman III: But then you read judges one, and actually you read Judges 13 and Follow and you take a look at what Judges 13 and following say about the land that remains Joshua at best took 40, 50% of the land.
And there was a lot more fighting to do [00:24:00] later and the conquest actually isn't completed. And we can talk about what completed means till the time of David David's. Yeah. Conquest completer. But but on the other hand, and you were totally right to say they're writing history and they're using the past like.
They're contemporaries And Lawson Younger wrote this very significant and influential doctoral dissertation years ago which is still widely cited by me and many others that talks about ancient near Eastern Battle reports.
Logan M. Isaac: Yeah, it's,
Tremper Longman III: you have to ask the question, what is Joshua one through 12?
What is it doing? I say it, there is a real conquest behind it. It's not the. There's a use of hyperbole here, though. For logical purposes in order to celebrate the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise of land. So you have to ask those kind of historical questions. [00:25:00] And I also wanna emphasize that in terms of the topic we're talking about today.
'cause sometimes some people will say the conquest never really happened, with the implication of the picture of God as a warrior is not an ethical issue. It's no. Yeah. If you'd have to ask the question why are they depicting God? This is their understanding of God and on what basis would we disown that understanding of God?
Yeah. So this is the topic of you brought up is one that would be fun to pursue in and of itself,
Logan M. Isaac: yeah. I think we're gonna take a break in just a moment, but I really want to hear the continuation of the framework that you build in God as a warrior, and carry it through into what it means for the New Testament and for today.
So stick around keep listening. We'll be right back after the break.
Okay. Now that we're back, I wanted to carry our conversation about the Old Testament and literature and narrative and the people that produced it, and [00:26:00] talk a little bit about the New Testament and what believers today might be able to take from.
It's a very, it's a divisive concept. The rise of. Nationalism I'll say, and the expectation that our nation,
I read so I, it's hard to put into words in safe but meaningful language. And maybe that's the problem. If God is a warrior, what's to stop us and I guess this is. My question that carries into the New Testament, why should God not war for us? Like we talked about nine 11 and Osama bin Laden's language around overthrowing oppressors.
What is wrong with a nation like ours? Using that same language to assert our interest overseas.
Tremper Longman III: Yeah, so the reason why is because [00:27:00] another element of John the Baptist and Jesus disagreement had to do with the fact that, as you said, John was wondering what, why Jesus wasn't. Warring against their oppressors.
The way Jesus responded in Matthew 11 to his two disciples who come up and say, are you the winner or should we expect another is he goes out and he heals the sick. He exercises demons, he preaches the good news. So basically what that signals, along with a whole bunch of other stuff in the New Testament is that Jesus is heightening and intensifying the battle.
So now it's directed toward the spiritual powers and authority. And those those evil powers aren't. Defeated with weapons like swords and spears, put away your sword. Jesus says to Peter when he's being arrested, but my way is to Jerusalem, [00:28:00] which is all, which is then saying we defeat them, not by killing, but by dying.
Logan M. Isaac: Yeah. And
Tremper Longman III: putting down our life. And and so that's why Paul, in Colossians two 13 to 15 uses military language to describe the crucifixion, the resurrection. Ephesians four, eight, cite Psalm 68, which is divine warrior hymn in terms of the ascension now so we might, come back to what, and this is what I'm calling stage four, Jesus defeats the spiritual powers and authority.
But then I would also go on and say, I don't think Jesus is saying that John is wrong. I think he's saying that John is speaking truth, but he doesn't know how it's gonna play out.
Logan M. Isaac: You said earlier, heightening and intensifying. Yeah. And if I'm hearing you and I think. I think there's a view that is more pervasive, that the [00:29:00] spiritual realm is somehow over there and it's to, to move into the spiritual realm is to diffuse instead of to intensify.
And yeah, as a veteran, like I've been to combat and you can, the worst thing that can happen is not that you die or are killed. The worst thing that can happen is you're an asshole and you don't get a chance to. Redeem your character. Like I, I would jump on a grade aid in a second, but if the last thing I did or one of the last things I did was something wrong I can't correct it.
And one of the, I have this essay idea that might be a book onward, spiritual Warfare for Rank and File Believers, like I think spiritual warfare. Is about principled nonviolence, applying pressure, intense pressure publicly to people who are abusing the power that is given to them. So I think of like Jesus in when he enters Jerusalem in, I wanna say in Mark, he comes [00:30:00] to the temple to do his tossing.
Nobody's there, there's no audience. So he leaves, he comes back when there's people there and then he throws it up and he is making a whole scene. It's street theater. Would you say more about the mannequin distinction, even like the platonic dualism distinction between like spirituality and materiality?
I think that if there's a spiritual realm, I think there is, it's actually closer to reality or God than the physical realm. And I don't wanna like dis, I don't wanna say our bodies are bad, but like you really gotta think about character and conscience and virtue if you're going to. If you're going to follow Jesus.
Tremper Longman III: Yeah. In terms of the connection between the spiritual and the material, we get a glimpse of that in the Old Testament in a place like Daniel 10. Where. Daniel has this disturbing vision and eventually an interpreting angel shows up and he [00:31:00] says, we wanna get here quicker. But we were,
Logan M. Isaac: yeah,
Tremper Longman III: we're delayed by the Spirit Prince of Persia.
And, but Michael, your angel thought through them and you, so you get this idea of the connection between spiritual warfare and human evil and. And that's why in the Old Testament we're never invited into that battle. They're never invited into that battle. But when you hadn't thought about
Logan M. Isaac: that,
Tremper Longman III: Besian six 10 and following another place is put on the whole armor of God again.
The fight is directed toward the spiritual powers and authority, which which to me. Also signals that that we never ever use physical violence or even some types of coercive behavior toward [00:32:00] evil toward even evil human beings, not and unfortunately. That doesn't mean we don't resist them, we don't challenge them.
We don't protest. We don't,
Logan M. Isaac: right.
Tremper Longman III: But we don't try to coerce non-Christians to act like Christians say,
Logan M. Isaac: right.
Tremper Longman III: One way or another, or impose our Christian values on the broader world. Which is very relevant to the kind of culture war thing that's going on today. Yeah.
What
Logan M. Isaac: you said about inviting, being invited in. Yeah. And one of the. The backgrounding kind of elements the divine armor. I didn't develop as much in this book, but I've since continued to think about it. We have Isaiah 59 17, the breastplate of Righteousness and the Helmet of Salvation.
It carried through Paul and Wisdom, and there's pieces of it all over. But as you said, I thought yeah, in the Old Testament, the Israelites were not invited to be like [00:33:00] God. And correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just like brainstorming as I'm try we're, they're not invited to be like, God, if anything be very clear.
You are not God. I am God. I'm gonna do these things through you, but you're not me. Yeah. But in Christ, there is a kind of invitation, pick up your cross and follow me. An invitation into divinity, an invitation to the intensity of spiritual. Conflict. Yeah, I, gosh, that's makes me, I, there's a lot that, a lot more we could say, but is that, how does that jive with what you know and what you've studied?
Tremper Longman III: It, yeah. It jives very well with what I'm thinking. I think that that one of the. In terms of a general principle, one of the biggest hermeneutical errors somebody can make is either thinking that. The New [00:34:00] Testament is in strict continuity with the Old Testament. So the whole Old Testament still applies, which is a view of people like Theus and people in the kind of dominion theology.
Yeah. Have that kind of air, Christian nationalists have that kind of as they're thinking that there could be even such a thing as a Christian nation. That's just, yeah. Even a, that's a category mistake.
Logan M. Isaac: Yeah.
Tremper Longman III: Bad implications, but but but yeah, that resonates very well. Again, to complete one earlier thought, I may have said this earlier, but I wanna make sure I do say it that.
John the Baptist wasn't wrong. He didn't, he misunderstood how it was gonna play out.
Logan M. Isaac: Yeah.
Tremper Longman III: The revelation. About, which I've just recently published a commentary. Also we'll talk about just like Daniel its message is, yeah, the world's falling apart, but don't be afraid, don't be angry. Don't take over [00:35:00] the culture.
And you don't have to, you can live with confidence and hope because we know that God's coming in the future and he will rescue us. So
Logan M. Isaac: yeah. John. John reminds me of a lot of progressive I'll say progressive. I don't know if I'd say pacifist, but they think the empire is the problem. And the first difficulty I have with that is like Cyrus, the elder is literally called the anointed in the Old Testament in the canon, but also which empire?
Or like Persia Se, or, I'm sorry. Syria. I'm getting confused, but Cyrus was an emperor, but he acted in a way that does not look like the way Augustus acted after the time of Christ. If there's something below that, then we can't really say it's the empire. And I went through anti-war I'm still anti-war, but like Iraq veterans against the war.
As soon as I got out, I was doing activism, but I realized it was cyclical. We're not getting it. The real problem. And [00:36:00] as a veteran, like post-traumatic stress disorder is just the next iteration of Shell Shock Neurasthenia. There's all these new names for the same old thing. What's that old thing?
And so that's my, that was my, that's how I like received John. He's not wrong, but he's oriented just slightly off kilter from Christ. And Christ is yes. This empire is a problem because the Battle of Philippi in 43 is the death of the republic, the birth of the Empire. And so Jesus sees it coming.
John certainly saw it coming, but one of the distinctions that I try and point out to veterans and any scholar who will listen to me is like. All of the gospels occur before the battle of Jerusalem and the destruction of the third temple, heritage temple. And Jesus never goes to Cesarea Maritima.
He never sees a light-skinned Italian le soldier Legionnaire. He's interacting with Syrian recruits aux. He's captain Marvel. The [00:37:00] centurion of great faith is probably. One of Herod's aristocrats who Luke and Matthew both call a hekaton tarkes, but that's this weird term that they don't understand as civilians.
They're just like, he's got a hundred men under him. But like in reality, he's something more like a noble in John four, which is exact, it's the same guy. He has a child, a boy child that like needs healing, but he's probably brown skinned, and so Jesus doesn't have the same. Antagonistic attitude that John clearly does, and I see John every day in anti-war circles, but John, Jesus is like, there's just a little difference.
And I wonder if that checks out with your scholarship, like imperialism is bad, but if that's your problem, if it's like a specific administration, then you're missing the point. There's something underneath it that Jesus, I think is pointing to.
Tremper Longman III: Yeah. First of all, I wanna thank you for.[00:38:00]
The chapter in which you talked about the nature of the Roman Army 'cause I'm not a New Testament scholar, but it certainly makes a lot of sense to me what you're saying in terms of the nature. I have to
Logan M. Isaac: say, Christopher Zeman and Lori Brink, I owe almost everything to them. They began writing after I got outta seminary in 2015.
And I didn't have any of this when I was in seminary, but. There's a lot more collaboration between Roman military historians and New Testament scholars. That wasn't there when I was, as late as 2014, but I just wanna make sure I give credit where credit as due, but I'm sorry to interrupt.
Tremper Longman III: No, that's okay.
But you might have to put me back on track here. So what's the underlying question again?
Logan M. Isaac: If I we're talking about the New Testament and what we can draw from in this overtly militarized or like materially forceful god of the Old Testament and in an, and a a [00:39:00] Christ figure who's saying yes.
Don't forget that, but now go deeper, go into the spiritual battle that the Old Testament or that the Israelite interaction with Yahweh is helping us see don't miss the forest for the trees. Don't get so involved in the here and now that you forget what's underneath it.
Tremper Longman III: Yeah I think that's exactly right and I think it does address the problem.
I would, I see it as a problem of some Christian approaches today to our general culture and society, and that is that we should. Know that the divine warrior is fighting the spiritual battle and that we can engage in it with things like prayer and and other spiritual weapons, but to react with fear and anger.
Even over something like, let me just touch on another topic. [00:40:00] Religious liberty. An awful lot of Christians get all hot and bothered about religious liberty. First of all, in response to that, I'd say, yeah, there are issues, but no one has ever enjoyed more religious liberty by far than American Christians.
Logan M. Isaac: Yeah.
Tremper Longman III: Number one and then number two realize that religious liberty, while you could, you definitely, there is a definite biblical basis for it in being created in the image of God and therefore freedom of conscience and should be available to everyone no matter what their religion or non-religion.
It's absolutely not necessary and often it's. It's it's harmful to, to the church. Yeah, the church will tends to have serious problems when it has political power and when it's marginalized. That's when [00:41:00] it really often flourishes. And I saw this, I taught a lot. I'm not traveling as much to teach in my seventies, but just for fun now.
But I used to teach a lot in Korea and in China. And I started teaching Korea in the eighties and that was a time when the church was just exploding.
Over time it got political power and then it started being, and my Korean friends will tell you that this is a correct understanding. Which is, it became rife with corruption of various times and then the church started collapsing.
Whereas in China, where I also taught, which was a fun gig for about seven years, I taught I did just intensives in the philosophy department at the university. But you can see how this church, which is being marginalized, was just [00:42:00] exploding over there. And I don't know. So I, that's I think, connected to what we're talking about Logan.
But
Logan M. Isaac: yeah, I think what the, yeah, I mean there's so much more we can talk about. And it, this. Interview has been such a great reminder, like being able to write this thing and revisit it and have conversations with the people that have inspired it. There's so much more that yeah. I'm really grateful for you taking the time.
Trumper. I wanna wrap it up 'cause I've, I'm trying to keep these episodes under an hour, but I will be sure to share more of your books in the video and in the show notes. Do you have any partying words, any last words or wisdom before we sign off?
Tremper Longman III: I'm not sure it's a word of wisdom, but it's a word of thanks to you.
I really appreciated your book, and I hope as it comes out again, a whole bunch of people will read it. Particularly veterans, but also non-veterans. I live Alexandria, Virginia. I have lots of veterans around me. Yeah.
And I actually asked them, does it really make you [00:43:00] mad when we say thank you for your service?
And they go, yeah,
Logan M. Isaac: we don't like to tell you. We won't tell you unless we trust you, but
Tremper Longman III: yeah. It's,
Logan M. Isaac: it's divisive because it, yeah, we are not unified and
Tremper Longman III: That's what our feelings of, it's a practical thing that helped me, but also not that we can't express in using non formulaic words are appreciated.
Logan M. Isaac: Yeah.
Tremper Longman III: But also I just think you. Did really good work, biblical theologically and everything like that, so that's good to hear.
Logan M. Isaac: I was winging it at a coffee shop every couple of weeks, but I, it's really good to hear and reassuring and I invite you along to the ride as I continue to edit.
But thanks once again, Trumper Longman iii. I will put all the stuff in the show notes. Thanks again. Have a good rest of your week and the rest of your flourishing career. It sounds like you've got a lot of books out. It's gonna fill all the show notes, but it was really good talking to you.
Tremper Longman III: Thanks, Logan.
Logan M. Isaac: Thank you.
